Issues related to Mr Steve Winter

Mr Steve Winter: concerning scandals and issues broadcast on internet

  • Failed lawsuit of April 2002
  • Origins and Background concerning Mr Winter from my perspective
  • Conflicts
  • History on usenet
  • Answering specific accusations

  • Why do you publish this page?
  • Why did you become involved with Mr Winter for so long?
  • Have you attempted to reconcile with Mr Winter?


    LAWSUIT - United States District Court for the Middle District of North Carolina Case No. 1:02CV382 (Winter & PreRapture Solutions, Inc., vs. Bassett, et al.)
    Click here to view original complaint


    Origins


    History on Usenet, etc.

    When we first encountered Mr Winter, it was in 1990 prior to the common public use of internet while searching through a Boston Based bulletin board, Channel One. Having seen a telephone number for Channel One in Microsoft Systems Journal I called my first "BBS", in search of some downloadable source code, to save some time. There I discovered that there were actually religious-oriented conversations, and there amidst the flames and arguments was a Oneness Pentecostal message, relating Holy Ghost baptism and Jesus name baptism, and the oneness of God. I tracked the author as Steve Winter, saw that he also had a bulletin board, and without much further thought, applied for membership, as I felt that it was a good thing to spread the gospel in this way that I had never imagined before. Mr. Winter was, in those days, quite excited to see a Apostolic seek to confedarate with him. I later learned what other motives were involved beyond the purpose of the gospel, and friendship, but at that time of course, this was all new for me.
    Within a short time, I had also set up a BBS package, and was introduced to some "mail relay" software that automated the transmission of messages to BBS's in a list by modem. Mr Winter's objective was to enlist other bulletin board systems, and expand this confederation of BBSs which he would call the "Prime Network". As I recall, the BBS's were also listed in the 'RIME' network which was operated by a Ms Bonny Anthony. I recall that, even at that early time, within a few weeks or a month, I became aware of some conflict between Winter and Anthony. This subnet called "PRIME" included a few overseas bulletin boards, and was limited to perhaps 20 in all. At some point, Raymond Knapp (whose name will be seen thrown around by Winter on usenet) was involved with a BBS in Hong Kong. I cannot recall whether Jerry Moon, and a number of other Oneness believers who have dropped out of view were involved in the RIME stage.

    Fidonet
    Shortly, we became aware of and switched to the FIDONET technology, where most who have a long standing awareness of Mr Winter, encountered him. While FIDONET provided a nodelist of its own, a special nodelist could be issued to transmit "echos" (fidonet equivalent of usenet newsgroups) to a special set of BBS's. Also, Mr Winter immediately could establish an "echo" and get it to be carried by the FIDONET backbone. This forum was called "HOLY_BIBLE".
    Winter's conflicts with administrators and others on usenet became legendary, and eventually resulted in a threat to sue Don Dawson, then regional coordinator of Fidonet, to reinstate the node number that was yanked. Winter's chamelion region number (at one point, he had an offshore region number) gave everyone a heads up as to his tenacity in defying disciplinary actions of Net Coordinators. The North Carolina NC who was involved in removing Winter from the nodelist basically resigned, and I think Dawson caved-in. It is memorable, and I am not the only one to recall that the papers which Winter dispatched to intimidate Dawson and others bore the name of the same lawyer Mr Jerry Moon recalls that, during their time of harmony (as Mr Moon was one of triad of individuals, who served as Winter's operatives for a long time in administrating his so-called "Prime" network - i.e. group of BBS's willing to subscribe to Winter's ranting) Mr. Winter and his wife who had worked in a law office (supposedly her father's) discussed how to type up legal-looking papers. Though courts have now crused several of Winter's frivilous lawsuits, the whole story is not in on this side of Winter's activities. We expect to see details forthcoming at some point.

    Usenet and IRC
  • ISPs
    Mr Winter eventually showed up on the internet in mid 1993, with commercially oriented posts selling STB serioual i/o cards and USR modems starting in July, followed by advertisments for "PRIME" in December (http://www.google.com/groups?selm=756259308.AA05078%40psybbs.durham.nc.us), then ironically with complaints about some sysop involved in Fidonet (
    http://www.google.com/groups?selm=a3c_9407191601%40psybbs.durham.nc.us) in July '94, and an attempt to by Winter to defend against a fraud that appears to have been perpetrated against him with a counterfeit post asserting his request to attack "pagan" BBS's (http://www.google.com/groups?selm=9c1_9408091030%40psybbs.durham.nc.us). Evidently this was the unhappy motivation that introduced Winter to the use of usenet. Finally he shows up, apparently angered by the "bad press" that he had been receiving (not that he had not done a lot to inspire outrage against himself, well beyond the simple idea of publishing doctrine that some disagreed with), he starts to publish "tracts" on usenet in Aug, '94 (http://www.google.com/groups?selm=b1d_9408161412%40psybbs.durham.nc.us). From here it is all downhill, and we have rapidly escalating negative interaction involving Winter and abuse@whateverisp.com from 10/94 until today. A google search shows about 15,800 posts authored by Mr Winter during that time period. Most are basically derived from about 20 original patterns, and involve very little new material or original thought. Searching from this set, which include the words "scum", "filth", or "dirt", returns 8,750 posts.
    Interestingly, Mr Steve Adams, and Mr Steve Buehler became targets of Mr Winter's abusive actions immediately, in 1996, See http://www.google.com/groups?selm=30f07382.26653125%40nntp.ix.netcom.com

    Mr Winter eventually purchased internet services from a supplier who, when approaced concerning his defamatory activities stated that he had no intention of honoring his upstream supplier's terms of service, (GTE and BNN), and thus pressing his own customer, Winter, to observe those terms. Later, Winter and others made accusations that, by approaching his ISP and ask for Winter to be held to the published Acceptable Use Policy of the upstream provider, I was attempting to restrict Mr Winter's "right" to access the internet.

    For a listing of Mr Winter's internet posts, click here

    At some point in 1997, Mr Winter attacked me by asserting that harassing email were being sent from my account, contacting my ISP and demanding that they shut down my account. My ISP, at that time, was ICONN, owned and operated at that time by Peter Sachs. Mr Winter made the serious mistake of a beligerant approach in dealing with Sachs, who already had a good understanding of Winter's activity, since by this time, Winter had become a legendary usenet kook, even receiving mention amongst some of the real crackpots of history, and even his own fan club echo. Furthermore, Peter Sachs, Esq., had done considerable work defending freedom of speech on the internet,and has in fact, appeared as an expert before the US Congress. Mr Winter made a serious mistake by attempting to intimidate Mr Sachs. It is a remarkable coincidence that, several days before, frustrated and concerned by Mr Winter's attempt to have me arrested for a few simple exchances on IRC, I had called some elders and asked for prayer, to prevent Mr Winter from asserting himself further. Witout consultation with me, Peter Sachs dealt with Mr Winter by posting "stevewinter.com", and providing some assistance and information to those who found themselves and their ISPs being intimidated by Mr Winter.

  • IRC
    Mr Winter became involved with IRC around late 1997, as I recall. IRC is an interactive medium, usually used for recreation. At that time, the IRC clients were not sophisticated, but were developing because of rapidly increasing popularity, and because IRC was a vastly superior alternative to AOL type "chat rooms". A number of Apostolic people had the idea of using IRC to develop "rooms" where the Apostolic doctrine, and testimonies and pray requests could be shared. On IRC the administrator of a chat room has the capability of restricting access to the room, but the identities of the users are never clearly established. Also, at that time, it was very, very common for IRC users to play "war" with one another, actually using "bots" and other methods of restricting IRC clients from operating. One of the things that happened to me very commonly was a "ping flood". The use of ping flood on IRC at that time was very common, and while it is related to a full blown denial of service attack, the consequences were so insignificant between these recreational users, that it never occured to me or anyone I knew that there were legal ramifications. Nevertheless, because of one event where I used a brief ping flood directed towards Mr Winter, he has, since that time, published widely that I am an admitted criminal. This is something on the scale of putting poster's up in every major city, with the name and picture of your neighbor, and labeling them a criminal, because they stepped uninvited onto your lawn, when you had a 3 inch "no trespassing sign" erected. Again, it is preopsterous, but alas, that is classic Winter.
    Mr Winter and I had several encounters on USENET, largely because it came to my attention that Mr Winter was defaming me in the ears of individuals who were involved in the "room" that I occasionally hosted and administrated. He also asserts that I "stalked" his teenage daughter, by that means. This is a lie, and will be dealt with below.

    Conflict

    Why did I become involved with Mr Winter for so long?
    Have you attempted to reconcile with Mr Winter, and have you forgiven him?
    Christians will ask this question of me, because they know from the doctrines of scripture that this is the correct way to deal with a person who intends and does evil towards you. Let me answer this without any chance for doubt: YES, I have sought on several occasions to deal with this matter so as to relieve Mr Winter of the burden.
    One will then ask, Why then, even if you have not been successful at getting a response from Mr Winter,
    Why do you publish this?" My answer to this is:

    I have avoided publishing anything on a permanent internet site, from the first encounter with Winter in 1990, until now. The reason that I now publish this is that, even after his humiliating defeat in this lawsuit, it appears that Mr Winter is beyond learning, and is literally living for the cause of defamation. For over ten years, I felt it was necessary to give allowances for a person simply mislead. Now, I feel it is necessary to answer the charges formally, and regularly, so as to eliminate the time wasted to respond privately to interested parties, and to provide an example to others who would likewise be amazed at the level of attack that can come from such an individual. I truly believe that, as the church begins to use communication tools effectively, the adversary will put more and more people with the same kind of character in the way. We must know how to deal with this type of attack openly and without apology.


    Answering Specific Accusations brought by Mr Winter


    Mr Winter's comments on closing this frivilous and vexatious lawsuit

    Did the failure of justice in the OJ case make OJ less of a murderer?
    Is Mark Bassett less of a liar, less of an heretic, less of a reprobate than a few hours ago?
    Is the case really closed?

    Pastor Winter

    posted 8/25/2003 9:03OM on alt.religion.christian.pentecostal


    My comments on closing this frivilous and vexatious lawsuit

    On 4/18/2002, "Pastor" Steve Winter used a spam (excessive crosspost) to announce:

    While I will not discuss any details I want to give God the glory and praise for providing me with one of the best if not the best lawyer in this area. I also request the prayers of all real Christians that the Lord Jesus would guide us and continue to mightily bless our efforts for truth and a legal endeavor we are involved in.
    Regards, Pastor Winter


    (From: Pastor Steve Winter (steveNOSPAM@prime.org) Subject: Prayer and thanksgiving to the Lord Jesus Christ Newsgroups: alt.christnet.public, alt.religion.christian, alt.religion.christian.presbyterian, misc.education.home-school.christian, alt.religion.christian.calvary-chapel, alt.christnet, alt.religion.christian.pentecostal Date: 2002-04-18 17:01:23 PST)



    Steve Winter was, of course referring to his attempt to grab money from over 20 different defendants (documented at
    http://winterfiles.sanctuaryweb.org/) claiming that others caused him emotional harm, and even asserting that criminal conspiracies were involved in responding to his defamatory and viscious interpersonal attacks on persons through the internet. 20-plus defendants in this suit were thereby molested and aggravated by this phoney for over a year.

    Last Friday, August 22, 2003, the Federal Court of the Middle District of North Carolina, published the conclusion of the case, dismissing ALL the defendants who were ever legitmately served in this silly abuse of the legal system by Mr Winter.

    Lets look at some interesting and notable excerpts from the closing memorandums:

    1. Winter's attorney claimed that he constantly failed to meet deadlines because of "excusable neglect", therefore violating rules of the court. The court did not have to deal with this matter, because of the clear grounds for dismissals, but did take the time to notice: "The reason for the delay in this case, although the Plaintiffs' attorney refers to the actions of a staff member, was the result of the attorney's inattentiveness to deadlines in this action. The management of deadlines is an attorney's responsibility and within his control. " Winter attempted to answer all motions to dismiss, for over 12 defendants, with a single response. Because the extention of time that he desired in order to do this was denied, based on lack of excuse for his attorney's neglect, the ridiculous demand for a consolodated, single response to the many motions, was considered moot.
    2. Winter made numerous scandalous and defamatory statements in his motion for extention of time. I filed a motion to strike these statements from the record. The court DENIED the motion for extention of time, and therefore, the scandalous statements are in the garbage can, where they belong, thus making my motion for striking these MOOT. No need to strike what authorities have deemed garbage.
    3. Winter and his attorney asserted many things. The five causes of action were woven with numerous strange allegations. Several defendants asked for dismissal under Federal Rule of Civil Procedure 12{b}{6}. Notably, the court took the time, though it did not need to, to point out that, while 12{b}{6} requires that allegations in complaints must be well pleaded and apparently true, ... "It appears certain that Winter cannot prove any set of facts in support of his/their claims". In short, the court states that Mr Winter's basis for these complaints are bogus, and have not been supported. As a note, we have seen from Mr Winter's behavioral pattern, that he filed this in District Court because he wanted to get this into trial, and have a hayday there, swinging his arms shouting and saying big words, where he felt that he would finally receive the attention he though that he deserved in his constant battle against mental windmills. In the local court, it would be seen that need of trial followed the absence of detail. Federal Court recognized this, and mercifully saved us the trouble of having to actually ANSWER this Bearded Banana's crazy assertions. So much for the "best lawyer"... In fact, Winter's two recourses now are to request clarification, and to plead attorney incompetance. I would advice for the former and against the latter because 1) Winter does need any light he can get on ANY subject, and 2) he had a good attorney, as far as his own welfare was concerned. Personally, I have other suppositions about how and why Mr Winter's lawyer, helped him to avoid the consequences of his craziness, once again. Ask yourself, what explanations exist for the fact that this loco weed Winter has been tossing around papers with this the name of this reputable man for over 10 years? Winter has NEVER threatened with another atty, and has NEVER won anything in his long years of playing the looney bird in the courts. Does anyone else see a merciful individual on the other side of the attorney's I doubt very much that a good lawyer, and I have no doubt that this man is a compentant and reputable individual, would have mixed federal law and local statutes in such a way as to guarentee that the higher court would have power to finally crush this vindictive program, and close doors to further actions, unless it was to do Mr Winter a favor that he did not solicit.
    4. Winter's leaning on USC 230 (though misidentified occasionally in his claims) was provided so as to put a weight on the ISP's, asserting a duty on the part of ISP's to shut off those who disagreed with him, and responded to his foolishness over the years, while instead some actually TOS'ed Mr Winter, correctly to his chagrin. This is ironic to the max. It was, in fact, USC 230 which held the ISP not liable for the content of the downstream publishers. (In this memorandum opinion, the court stated "The Fourth Court has clearly held that USC 230 creates a federal immunityto any cause of action that would make ISPs liable for information originating with a third party user of the service. - Zeran 129 F.3d at 329") In effect, Mr Winter's assertion was that an ISP is responsible to shut off users, whenever Mr Winter stated to them that he was displeased with their activity, accompanied by Mr Winter's allegation that the person was doing wrongful or illegal activity. How strange and ironic when we compared the reality: It was Mr Winter who was responsible for obeying the rules and terms of his contract with HIS ISP, and for much of the last ten years, he enjoyed the favor of ISPs who DID NOT deal with HIM as a violator of his own terms of service. The use of USC 230 was the over-reach which allowed the corporate defendants (Time Warner, AT&T, GospelCom, etc) to remove the case to federal court, and then judge that, according to Mr Winter's own complaint, they should interpret USC 230, and therein the entire interwoven fabric of these complaints. Without this, Mr Winter would not have a complaint that distinguished him from any crybaby who has tasted his own medicine. With it, he had a charge that demanded that US code be stretched to accomodate his fantastic imaginations.
    5. The Court took time to remind us that "technology cannot 'eviscerate the constitutional limits on a State's power to exercise jurisdiction over a defendant' ... In ZIPPO, 952 F.Supp 1119 (W.D. PA 1997), 'the liklihood of personal jurisdiction can be constitututionally exercized is directly proportionate to the nature and quality of the commercial activity that an entity conducts over the internet". Mr Winter filed this frivilous suit, interestingly, as two platiffs. He filed as HIMSELF, the whack-a-do who tosses flames around the internet, then complaining that he was emotionally upset when people answered him, trying to disguise his defamations as justified and even protected because of religious content, and he ALSO filed as a business entity. However, from the beginning, a question arose concerning the reason of combining these two plaintiffs in a single case. As I wrote in http://winterfiles.sanctuaryweb.org/documents/bassett001.pdf moving the court to dismiss...

      The undersigned is blamed in Fourth Cause of Action (ISPs - Knowingly Allow Abuse of Service), and Fifth Cause of Action (Unfair and Deceptive Trade Practices). However, the Plaintiff's claim fails to distinguish between responses to his own religious speech, to which it is conceivable that negative reactions may occur by nature of religious speech, and alleged trade-related actions. Plaintiff Winter engages in inflammatory conduct as an individual in the internet, but claims that alleged reactions to his personal communication, which he conducted as an individual and not as a representative of Plaintiff Sellcom, harmed his business interests. No defendant interacting with Plaintiff Winter relating to the inflammatory religious issues on the internet could have known that he was at risk of being accused of Unfair Trade Practices, and most of the defendants named in the Fourth Cause of Action could not have "allowed abuse of service" as averred in paragraph 45. IN other words, Defendants are alleged to have harmed Plaintiff Sellcom, when to the best of the undersigned's knowledge, the defendants had no contact with, nor significant knowledge of Plaintiff Sellcom, when interacting with Plaintiff Winter.

      It is notable that Sellcom may be thought to have suffered damage as a result of Winter's interactions, but, as Sellcom's proprietor, Winter is responsible for negative attitudes developed towards him, and also to his business activity, unless he kept his business activity a secret from any persons who might have witnessed his controversial activity, and developed attitudes independently. Moreover, Plaintiff Winter was never deprived of the choice of how to best protect the interests of Sellcom. The Plaintiff and Plaintiff's attorney must have known, when preparing the complaint for presentation to the court, that accusing defendants of violations of trade-related statues harming a business entity after "baiting" adversaries with religious arguments on the non-commercial Usenet as an individual would result in an improperly motivated presentation to the Court.

      In the Second Cause of Action (Intentional Infliction of Emotional Distress) and the Third Cause of Action (Defamation) the Plaintiffs allege defamatory, hurtful communications on the part of the defendants Bassett, Sachs, Schidell, Adams, Buehler, Cousert, Klein, Ratcliffe, Hayes, Miller, Moon, Mccaskey, Gwynn, Boggs, Engle, gospelcom.net, and Yahoo. However, examination of the archived content of Usenet interactions, where the Plaintiff's religious speech takes place, and where the alleged offences are supposed to have arisen, and examination of website published and maintained by Plaintiff Winter reveals that Plaintiff Winter's own communication contains very large amounts of communication of the very same nature, as he alleges has hurt him[1]. For the Plaintiff to bring claims before the Court, while fully knowing that a discovery process will immediately reveal his own frequent and regular defamatory actions against numerous of the Defendants, from which he seeks relief in his complaints, and many others, cannot be considered without inferring an effort on the part of the Plaintiffs' and Plaintiffs' attorney to increase the cost of litigation without ultimately demonstrating activity on the part of defendants, that he has not more frequently, and more harmfully engaged in himself.

      Footnotes from quotes that appeared above:
      [1] For example, the following very brief excerpts are reproduced from http://groups.google.com where Usenet posts are archived. This archive contains 9, 750 publications by Plaintiff Winter between June 1997 and the present date. Though the quality does not differ from earlier contributions, all of the following examples were published by Mr. Winter since the filing of this complaint on April 15, 2002: "Raymond Knapp is a reprobate spiritual slut trying to put himself over as 'Oneness missionary' in Hong Kong" - 5/27/2002 "Let all real Christians join me in prayer that the Lord would bring down the pompous, pride engorged elders in the UPCI that are responsible for Mark Bassett being licensed to preach. The ignorant dimbulb Robert D. Taylor sold his soul for the approval of the reprobate Mark Bassett!" - 5/26/2002 "Jim and his wife are among the more malicious of the whackos." - 5/25/2002 "Some out here might remember fruitcake William Price as he would go back and forth between trinity and oneness every week or so. Trying to play preacher".- 5/24/2002 "Robert Taylor is a liar." -5/23/2002 "Real Oneness Christians are not cowards like Jim. Consider his opinion of equal value with any other anon trash on USENET." - 5/23/2002 "Sometimes the hypocrisy of these filth like Rochelle astounds me." - 5/22/2002 "See what the little false-christian scum William Price knowingly endorses." - 5/22/2002 "Mark Bassett would simply be pitiable in his lunacy; but my greatest concern is if someone seeking God could end up in a church with a reprobate loonie like Bassett behind the pulpit. I refer people on occasion to [United Pentecostal] Churches, people like Mark Bassett make that somewhat scary!" - 5/19/2002 note: Defendant Bassett is an ordained minister of the United Pentecostal Church, and a pastor. "I guess my sermon made the devil and his filth mad, GOOD! Russell Vaughn Howard, you are a lying piece of reprobate trash." - 5/11/2002 "Presbyterians are trinity filth who have been making headlines for their sub-canine morals for some time now" - 5/6/2002 "Of course Mr. Bassett who Robert Taylor supports and endorses teaches the 'automarriage' doctrine." - 5/5/2002 - note, here the Plaintiff makes one of many condemnatory claims, which defendant Bassett has specifically objected to and complained of for a period of years. Nevertheless the Plaintiff makes such statements regularly, plainly for the purpose of defamation. These examples are a very, very small sample of the nature of communication that the Plaintiff has been publishing for several years.

    6. Those whose cases were returned to the Superior Court in Durham are notable, those who were never legitimately served. That is, Steve Adams, Michael Schidell, William Cousert, Camille Klein, Donnie Hayes, William Miller, Jerry Moon, Mark Gwynn, Brian Boggs We can interpret that the Federal Court took the time to show favor on and to help all that it could, after dealing with this matter that was originated by Mr Winter. Conclusion: Here we see a misguided individual, religiously sick and twisted by his hatred for those who do not boost his ego, attempting to ascribe "glory to God" for a process designed to glorify himself. Ironically, the Bible addresses this unfortunate and chilling end of a soul that seals itself off from the knowledge of God by pride and ignorance:

      Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. ... Romans 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

      Mr Winter should NOW be thanking God that the defendants were not driven to even ANSWER the complaints which he originated, for the resulting discovery - a process that HE DESIRED, would have certainly taken from him whatever remaining sense of security he has. Perhaps we will have a few more comments after some time to more completely evaluate these closing comments of the court.

      Mr Winter's own document describing my alleged harassment of his daughter.

      From http://www.impsmail.org/bas0221a.txt

      This is a 2/21/98 public post by Mark Bassett in which he makes various admissions regarding his harassment/stalking campaign from iconn.net including his admission to accessing my 14 year old daughter's computer. This has, of course, been FAXed to the Police Dept.

      It appears that the UPCI has a real stench in their leadership in the state of Conn.

      UPC, please curb your dog.

      Path: nntp.earthlink.net!uunet!in5.uu.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!204.59.152.222!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news-xfer.netaxs.com!netaxs.com!usenet
      From: mbasset@iconn.net (Mark Bassett)
      Newsgroups: alt.bible.prophecy,alt.christnet,alt.christnet.public,alt.religion.christian
      Subject: Re: Criminal complaint filed against Mark Bassett.
      Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 14:59:38 GMT
      Organization: newsread.com ISP News Reading Service
      Lines: 76
      Message-ID: <34eee836.34379731@news.iconn.net>
      References: <6ci0lb$kgs$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <887925248mnewsflohr@ime.net>
      <6ck04e$tgf$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <34f1ac96.83546833@news.iconn.net>
      <6clqh4$qmi@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>
      Reply-To: mbasset@iconn.net
      NNTP-Posting-Host: nh-ts00-03.iconn.net
      Mime-Version: 1.0
      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
      Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
      X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451
      Xref: nntp.earthlink.net alt.bible.prophecy:139446 alt.christnet:368981 alt.christnet.public:17357
      alt.religion.christian:352968
      --------
      On Sat, 21 Feb 1998 00:59:03 -0500, Michael Maturen
      wrote:
      >Mark,
      >
      >I have sent personal e-mail to Steve condemning his hateful spirit
      >toward you, AND toward trinitarians such as myself. I appreciate the
      >views of oneness believers (in fact, I would like to study them more
      >closely). However, Steves approach is one of meanness, vitrile and
      >hatred...certainly NOT the love that Christ commands.
      >
      >I, in fairness, must also condemn (this is perhaps, in your situation,
      >too harsh a word) your actions in this matter. I realize that you began
      >by simply dfending yourself against slanderous remarks. This is
      >acceptable.


      My goodness, thanks for the private mail, Michael! I so appreciate
      people who do their correction in public.
      You all DO realize, don't you, that Winter prohibits private
      communication, which would be approriate? I certainly hope there is no
      concept that anyone enjoys any of this. I don't. Period.

      While I'm here writing a usenet message, which I have little stomache for, maybe no one else noticed but some idiot wrote a criminal note on usenet in the last few days indicating that there was sex abuse. I believe this was very wrong and want to express it without mentioning it publically. I guess my ideas are REALLY whacked out compared with the rest of these geniuses. I found Winter's IRC channel (which I suspect he cheated on the attedance requirements of using clones to populate the channel for the visit bots to count). Since his client is set to ignore me (related to an imaginary complaint the loon imagines that he filed at the police department), I simply messaged one the clones.

      The text of the message that I supposedly harrassed his "daughter" with is as follows: (I am (some would doubt) "Seeinghim")

      *** Log file opened: 2/20/98 02:53:06 PM
      For Steve Winter: You have my sincere sympathy and concern related to this individual who published libel relating to sex offense. I am determined to see the perpetrator identified punished. Regardless of your offenses, you ARE a victim in that crminal act, and I am outraged about it.
      Scum this harassment of my daughter will be reported to the police
      Do not contact us again
      Acolyte is on IRC
      It was a message for you
      seeinghim mbz@nh-ts00-15.iconn.net * :justaguy
      seeinghim :#apostolic
      seeinghim NewBrunswick.NJ.US.Undernet.Org
      :[204.127.145.17] AT&T WorldNet IRC Chat Service
      seeinghim :End of /WHOIS list.
      -
      You are logged dirt
      ok thanks
      so long as you got the message
      *** Log file closed: 2/20/98 03:03:37 PM


      Of course this justified this person in luring people out of the sane channels, comdemning our activity, slandering me, and so on and so forth.. Come on, he lives for this.

      And, frankly I don't care what he complains about. His agenda is to do damage to the reputation of other people, and particularly the church where he couldnt play his guitar as loud as he wanted, and who didnt throw roses all over him and give him the pulpit when he complained about everyone and everything.


      I also dont care what anyone says about my doctrine, or how many harrassment accusations follow. The right way to deal with a depraved individual like that is to pray for them, which perhaps will result in legal or institutional restraint.